Houses of God pt. 5 “The Temple of Doom”

It’s pathetic just how excited I get about the Snufferite movement and all their ridiculous attempts to please God.

They now have a Temple Fund– on gofundme.com no less!

https://www.gofundme.com/the-temple-fund-project

Oh boy here we go…

Those following Snuffer– and yes they are following him– have some serious blind spots.

I have laid out every reason why the Snufferite movement is not God setting his hand again the second time…

I have not received a single rebuttal. The snufferites love their prophet and the fuzzys they get listening to his BS.

Denver Snuffer is Satan’s modern day masterpiece.

A polygamy preaching racist like James Harmston isn’t gonna do the trick anymore.

You need someone who claims Joseph never commited polygamy…

That’s the kind of thing that believing Mormons need to hear if they’re gonna leave the corporate LDS church.

[With that said, I don’t actually care if anyone stays or leaves the LDS church.]

*

This post I am going to explain why Snuffer’s temple is BS.

Is this going to change the mind of any potential Snufferite??

Nope–

they are just like the Mormons who refuse to read anti-Mormonism because it might damage their testimonies…

But for someone like me, who years ago was torn between all the many voices in the world, I think it may prove useful.

Before reading any further, please take a look at the previous posts I’ve done about temples:

Part One: the fulness of the gospel

https://theworkofthefather.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/houses-of-god-pt-1/

Part Two: Kirtland

https://theworkofthefather.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/houses-of-god-pt-2-kirtland/

Part Three: Nauvoo

https://theworkofthefather.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/houses-of-god-pt-3-nauvoo/

Part Four: the redemption of zion

https://theworkofthefather.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/houses-of-god-pt-4-the-redemption-of-zion/

*

I feel like I need to reiterate something very important that I covered in Part Three of this series.

A huge controversy in Mormondom is whether or not the church was rejected by God.

Did the Saints finish the temple in Nauvoo or did they not?

I made the case that they didn’t. But I also made the case that it was never the temple that they were commanded to build in time.

They were commanded to build the Nauvoo House! That DEFINITELY wasn’t built in time; it basically wasn’t built at all – LOL

Honestly, I am very quite proud of the series I wrote. I wrote those on my mission. It still boggles me how I was able to wrap my mind around the temple controversies.

Anyway, enough gloating.

Why is it significant that it was the House not the Temple being commanded in Section 124?

Because the Snufferites still don’t know the difference between the two!

This proves that Denver doesn’t know what he is talking about; and his attempt to build a “temple” will not be in accordance with God’s will.

I have explained the difference and meaning between the houses of God.

House of God = for ordinations to fulness of priesthood (and baptisms for dead)

House/Temple of God = for sanctification

If Denver was legit, he would be building a *House of God, not a temple, to ordain people to the fulness of the priesthood.

THEN they would build a house/temple to receive sanctification which would enable them to be in the presence of the Lord.

They should be creating a fund for both a House and a Temple to receive the fulness of the gospel.

However, Denver claims he already holds the fulness of the priesthood AND he claims he’s already seen our Lord…

What an idiot. What’s the temple even for?

Oh yeah, a stupid masonic cermony…

I’m now going to break down Section 124 in detail to prove what should be obvious.

23 And it shall be for a house for boarding, a house [the Nauvoo House] that strangers [seed of Abraham/strangers in a strange land] may come from afar to lodge therein; therefore let it be a good house, worthy of all acceptation, that the weary traveler may find health and safety while he shall contemplate the word of the Lord; and the cornerstone I have appointed for Zion.

24 This house shall be a healthful habitation if it be built unto my name, and if the governor which shall be appointed unto it shall not suffer any pollution to come upon it. It shall be holy, or the Lord your God will not dwell therein.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, let all my saints come from afar.

26 And send ye swift messengers, yea, chosen messengers, and say unto them: Come ye, with all your gold, and your silver, and your precious stones, and with all your antiquities; and with all who have knowledge of antiquities, that will come, may come, and bring the box tree, and the fir tree, and the pine tree, together with all the precious trees of the earth;

27 And with iron, with copper, and with brass, and with zinc, and with all your precious things of the earth; and build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein.

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood. [still referring to the Nauvoo House!]

29 For a baptismal font there is not upon the earth, that they, my saints, may be baptized for those who are dead—

30 For this ordinance belongeth to my house, [Nauvoo House….] and cannot be acceptable to me, only in the days of your poverty, wherein ye are not able to build a house unto me. [Saints no longer in poverty; therefore, they must build the temple before performing baptisms for the dead and/or receiving the fulness of the priesthood.]

31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me. [during this time regular baptisms are acceptable, NOT baptisms for the dead]

32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.

33 For verily I say unto you, that after you have had sufficient time to build a house to me, wherein the ordinance of baptizing for the dead belongeth, and for which the same was instituted from before the foundation of the world, your baptisms for your dead cannot be acceptable unto me;

34 For therein are the keys of the holy priesthood ordained, that you may receive honor and glory.

35 And after this time, your baptisms for the dead, by those who are scattered abroad, [the future LDS church] are not acceptable unto me, saith the Lord.

Okay….

To me it is clear as day that this is the Nauvoo House not the Nauvoo Temple. There is no change of subject at any point in those verses. One more piece of evidence is verse 22, “Let my servant George, and my servant Lyman, and my servant John Snider, and others, build a house unto my name, such a one as my servant Joseph shall show unto them, upon the place which he SHALL show unto them also.”

Before Section 124 was received, they were already building the Nauvoo Temple.

The Nauvoo House needed to be shown them!

Verses 51-55 refer to the Nauvoo Temple.

Then Verse 56 goes on and talks about the Nauvoo House for another thirty verses… That’s what Section 124 teaches. What does Denver teach?

Snufferites, where are you?

Tell me where I’m wrong.

-G.azelem

19 thoughts on “Houses of God pt. 5 “The Temple of Doom”

  1. 25 And again, verily I say unto you, let all my saints come from afar.

    “And again,” is a change of subject. At that point the Lord started talking about the temple. Verse 27 is still speaking of the temple, which is why the Most High will dwell there. The house for strangers is not where the Most High will dwell. Verse 28 is still talking of the temple, not the Nauvoo House. Verse 30 is still talking of the temple. 31 is still talking of the temple and refers to their doing baptisms for the dead in the rivers, which is what they were doing, as they were poor. And the Lord gave them a space to build (not to complete) the house whereby they could do the baptisms for the dead. At the end of that time they, in fact, did build (not complete) the house whereby they could perform the baptisms for the dead and so ceased doing baptisms for the dead in the river and began doing them in the temple baptistery. Look up the word “build” in the 1828 dictionary. It doesn’t mean “to complete.” It means “To raise or place on a foundation,” which is what they did.

    https://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/build

    Verse 22 refers to the Nauvoo House. So do verses 23-24.

    Okay, I’ve shown you where you’ve gone wrong. As you can see, D&C 124 does not prove that the church was rejected. It actually shows that the LDS church mainstream interpretation of this scripture is consistent with the facts.

    This same idea of this section “proving” that the church was rejected is multiplied endlessly by those who say the church is apostate. I have now shown and proven that this argument is baseless and wrong. I have also shown the error of your unique interpretation concerning those verses that you mistakenly thought were referring to the Nauvoo House. It was an honest mistake, as I suppose you didn’t catch that those two words and a comma, “and again,” are what indicates a change of subject in scripture. Now that I have shown you your error, self-correct and drop this false narrative.

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  2. @ LDS Anarchist

    After reading your comment I thought it a good idea to have a look at the usage of the phrase “AND AGAIN”.

    Again – “…notes something further, or additional to…” – Websters 1828 dictionary

    “A common phrase in Hebrew is “l’olam va’ed” and is usually translated as “forever and ever,” but in the Hebrew it means “to the distant horizon AND AGAIN” meaning “a very distant time and even further.” – Ancient Hebrew Dictionary by Jeff A. Benner

    “…they have brought breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper, and are perfectly sound. AND AGAIN, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust…” Mosiah 8:10-11

    “They were a wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, believing in the tradition of their fathers, which is this—Believing that they were driven out of the land of Jerusalem because of the iniquities of their fathers, and that they were wronged in the wilderness by their brethren, and they were also wronged while crossing the sea; AND AGAIN, that they were wronged while in the land of their first inheritance, after they had crossed the sea, and all this because that Nephi was more faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord…” Mosiah 10:12-13

    “And his brethren were a wroth with him because they understood not the dealings of the Lord; they were also wroth with him upon the waters because they hardened their hearts against the Lord. AND AGAIN, they were wroth with him when they had arrived in the promised land, because they said that he had taken the ruling of the people out of their hands; and they sought to kill him.” Mosiah 10:14-15

    “And O how beautiful upon the mountains were their feet! AND AGAIN, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that are still publishing peace! AND AGAIN, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those who shall hereafter publish peace, yea, from this time henceforth and forever!” Mosiah 15:15-17

    “Thus the word of God is fulfilled, for these are the words which he said to Nephi: Behold, the Lamanites have I cursed, and I will set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed, from this time henceforth and forever, except they repent of their wickedness and turn to me that I may have mercy upon them. AND AGAIN: I will set a mark upon him that mingleth his seed with thy brethren, that they may be cursed also. AND AGAIN: I will set a mark upon him that fighteth against thee and thy seed. AND AGAIN, I say he that departeth from thee shall no more be called thy seed; and I will bless thee, and whomsoever shall be called thy seed, henceforth and forever; and these were the promises of the Lord unto Nephi and to his seed.” Alma 3:14-17

    It can be said that “AND AGAIN” is like the phrase “furthermore”; it does not change the subject. It connotes further details of the subject at hand. And so we see:

    “This house shall be a healthful habitation if it be built unto my name, and if the governor which shall be appointed unto it shall not suffer any pollution to come upon it. It shall be holy, or the Lord your God will not dwell therein. AND AGAIN (furthermore), verily I say unto you, let all my saints come from afar. And send ye swift messengers, yea, chosen messengers, and say unto them: Come ye, with all your gold, and your silver, and your precious stones, and with all your antiquities; and with all who have knowledge of antiquities, that will come, may come, and bring the box tree, and the fir tree, and the pine tree, together with all the precious trees of the earth; And with iron, with copper, and with brass, and with zinc, and with all your precious things of the earth; and build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein. For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.” D&C 124:24-27

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  3. G.azelem, I will try once more. Look at the revelations of Joseph (D&C.) So, for instance, section 75:

    Verse 12 ends with an “Amen.”
    The “and again,” of verse 13 is a SWITCH to instructions for Orson Hyde and Samuel H. Smith.
    The “and again,” of verse 14 is a SWITCH to instructions for Lyman Johnson and Orson Pratt.
    The “and again,” of verse 15 is a SWITCH to instructions for Asa Dodds and Calves Wilson.
    The “and again,” of verse 17 is a SWITCH to instructions for Major N. Ashley and Burr Riggs.
    Verse 22 ends with an “Amen.”
    The “and again,” of verse 23 is a SWITCH to a new topic, a new set of instructions.
    The “and again,” of verse 28 is a SWITCH to a new topic, a new set of instructions.

    This is how it works throughout all of the revelations of Joseph Smith. So, taking the actual revelation that this post writes about (D&C 124), we get:

    The “and again,” of verse 9 is a SWITCH to talking about blessing the Gentiles, as opposed to the cursing of the Gentiles spoken of in verse 8.
    The “and again,” of verse 12 is a SWITCH to instructions for Robert B. Thompson.
    The “and again,” of verse 15 is a SWITCH to words concerning Hyrum Smith.
    The “again,” of verse 16 is a SWITCH to instructions for John C. Bennett.
    The “and again,” of verse 18 is a SWITCH to instructions for Lyman Wight.
    The “and again,” of verse 20 is a SWITCH to instructions for George Miller.
    Verse 22 begins the instructions concerning the building of the Nauvoo House.
    The “and again,” of verse 25 is a SWITCH to instructions for the building of the Temple.
    The “and again,” of verse 37 is a SWITCH to talking about Temple washings, as opposed to the Temple baptisms for the dead spoken of in verse 36.
    The “and again,” of verse 55 is a SWITCH to talking about the Temple to be built in Nauvoo, as opposed to the Temple that was to be built in Missouri spoken of in verses 51-54.
    The “and now I say unto you,” of verse 56 is a SWITCH to instructions about the Nauvoo House.

    And so on for the rest of this very long revelation.

    This is the plain and actual meaning of how these words, or this “and again,” phrase, is used. I cannot make this any plainer to you or anyone else. If this doesn’t convince you that your interpretation is in error, nothing will.

    But just for fun, in case you still balk at this, try this experiment: Use your “furthermore” idea for the entire revelation, for each and every instance of “and again” found in D&C 124, treating it as if the subject does not change from the preceding verse, but that what follows are further details of the subject at hand, meaning the subject spoken of in the preceding verse. You will find that this idea of yours leads to absurdities. Start at verse 9 and try the experiment.

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  4. This was an interesting post. Thank you for your thoughtfulness and sharing with all of us. I have a hard time at the moment believing or trusting anything completely in the scriptures. I’ve found that changes have been made to punctuation, and taking out or changing words, etc. in the Book of Mormon and The Doctrine and Covenants. It gets confusing. Do I need to buy an early printing of the D and C which was the Book of Commandments I believe? For instance, I think it used to include The Lectures on Faith. I am teaching a gospel doctrine class tomorrow on Christ. In the teachers manual, it gives a quote from the Lectures on Faith. ” Explain that to be able to exercise faith in God, we must have a “correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes” (in Joseph Smith, comp., Lectures on Faith (1985), 38). I find this interesting as it’s using the Lectures on Faith in their manual, but later in the lesson it refers you to the Bible Dictionary, light of Christ. If you look that up it quotes at the end, “The light of Christ should not be confused with the personage of the Holy Ghost, …….” How interesting, because in the Lectures on Faith, says “How many personages are there in the Godhead? Two: the Father and the Son.” It states that the Holy Spirit which is the 3rd part of the Godhead, is the MIND of the Father.
    My point being, the L.D.S. church has many contradicions and only by intense study can a person seem to dig down to the truth of things. I belive that the church going astray early on explains so many things. Why there is polygamy when they were told monagamy was the law. Why they suffered and fled persecution, when if they had been able to stand the fullness, they would have grown like then City of Enoch and avoided the sufferning on the plains.

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    • Lee,

      Much can be learned by comparing the Book of Commandments 1833 to the Doctrine and Covenants 1835.

      However, God wanted these stumbling blocks. I wouldn’t worry too much about having to get the Original text of the Book of Mormon or an un-corrupted D&C.

      My recommendation is to read and believe The Lectures on Faith. That is what constituted the “Doctrine” of Doctrine and Covenants. The church had to get rid of it due to the king follet sermon, adam-god, and other blasphemous teachings (such as believing the Holy Ghost to be a personage.) The Lectures on Faith teach the truth about the nature of God.

      You are entirely right by saying the only way we can know the truth is by intense study. You have to be willing to go deep down the rabbit hole. You have to be willing to ask questions that seem to have no answers…

      A knowledge that the church went astray by 1835 is also EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

      That puts you miles ahead in the game.

      Enjoy the journey you’re on.

      The Spirit will guide you and reward you.

      G.azelem

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  5. G.azelem, I’ll say a few more things.

    Concerning the scriptures you quoted in your comment, notice that:

    Verse 10 of Mosiah 8 says they brought breastplates.
    The “And again,” of verse 11 is a SWITCH to saying they brought swords.

    Mosiah 10:12 says they were wronged while traveling in the wilderness and while traveling upon the sea.
    The “And again,” of verse 13 is a SWITCH to saying they were wronged also when they finally got to the promised land.
    Verse 13-14 says that they were wroth with Nephi while they traveled in the wilderness and upon the sea.
    The “And again,” of verse 15 is a SWITCH to saying they were wroth also with him when they finally got to the promised land.

    Mosiah 15:15 says that those of the past had beautiful feet.
    The “And again,” of verse 16 is a SWITCH to saying that those of the present have beautiful feet.
    The “And again,” of verse 17 is a SWITCH to saying that those of the future will have beautiful feet.

    Alma 3:14 says that the Lord will set a mark upon the Lamanties.
    The “And again,” of verse 15 is a SWITCH to saying that the Lord will also set a mark upon any Nephite that mngles seed with the Lamanites.
    The “And again,” of verse 16 is a SWITCH to saying that the Lord will also set a mark upon anyone who fights Nephi and his seed (the Nephites.)
    The “And again,” of verse 17 is a SWITCH to saying that any Nephite that departs from the Nephites will no longer be called Nephites, etc.

    Now, I will present one last evidence that D&C 124:25 is a SWITCH from talking of the Nauvoo House to talking of the Temple:

    George Miller, Lyman Wight, John Snyder and others, in verse 22, are directed to build the Nauvoo House. These directions are found in verses 22-24 and in verse 56 and onward. In verse 62 Peter Haws is also named as part of the quorum (along with Miller, Wight and Snyder) for the building of the Nauvoo House. Notice in verse 63 that the house is to be built with funds obtained by the selling of stock. The rest of the revelation talks much about how this stock funding is to function.

    However, the Temple was to built not by the selling of stock, but by the saints donating their gold, silver, precious stones, antiquities, trees and precious trees, iron, copper, brass, zinc and precious things, and the saints were to build the Temple. (See verses 25-27.) There is no temple committee or quorum designated, nor any stock funding for the Temple. The saints, as a body, are commanded to build the Temple by donating their precious things and also their skills (“knowledge of antiquities”) and by their sacrifice they were to build this House of the Lord themselves.

    Thus, there is a plain distinction in the text as to when the Lord is referring to the Nauvoo House and to when He is referring to the Temple.

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    • I think trying to prove whether or not “and again” is changing a subject or constituting the same thing as “furthermore” is fruitless.

      LDSAnon has included evidence and you have included evidence.

      It comes down to other things.

      Verse 25 in my opinion is still referring to the Temple. You’ve not changed my mind.

      A change as big as that needs a little more work than “and again”.

      The Lord makes clear what he’s talking about. Look at verse 56: “And now I say unto you, pertaining to my boarding house.”

      Why didn’t the Lord say in verse 25, “and now I say unto you pertaining to my temple”???

      Because he’s still talking about the Nauvoo House.

      Verse 25 is calling Saints to come from afar… Verse 60 is a resting place for the weary traveler…

      -G.azelem

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      • G.azelem,

        Lol. I thought LDSAnon was G.azelem and replied as if it were you. Well, whatever. My comments addressed to LDSAnon still apply.

        Verse 25 in my opinion is still referring to the Temple. You’ve not changed my mind.

        Apparently I have changed your mind, given that verse 25 referring to the Temple was my assertion, not yours. (You said it referred to the Nauvoo House.) 😉

        Why didn’t the Lord say in verse 25, “and now I say unto you pertaining to my temple”???

        Because He doesn’t need to. “And again,” is a topical switch used throughout the entire Standard Works. This is why the 15 million LDS all understand this verse to mean the Temple. As do I. As do all the historians and scholars, and also the history of what happened, all bears out what this refers to. Even Joseph Smith’s words and actions during that time indicate that he understood that verse to be a topical switch to the Temple. You are the only one that thinks it’s referring to the Nauvoo House. So, your view is entirely heretical. It goes against pretty much everyone.

        Now, I’m not one to say that just because you are alone in your view, that means you are wrong. Many of my own views have broken, and break, brand new ground. But anyone, even a non-LDS English language professor or teacher, looking at that revelation and that “and again” clause will tell you that in simple, plain English, that functions as a topical switch, and that in that verse the Lord was switching to the topic of the Temple. So, you are even going against the rules of plain English, as understood by everyone.

        But I gave you a proof which you just threw away, namely, that the Nauvoo House was to be built by the selling of stock, whereas the Temple was to be built by the donations of the saints. Even another revelation reveals that this is how Temples are built, by donation, not by the selling of stock:

        Verily I say unto you, that it is my will that a house should be built unto me in the land of Zion, like unto the pattern which I have given you. Yea, let it be built speedily, by the tithing of my people. Behold, this is the tithing and the sacrifice which I, the Lord, require at their hands, that there may be a house built unto me for the salvation of Zion—for a place of thanksgiving for all saints, and for a place of instruction for all those who are called to the work of the ministry in all their several callings and offices; that they may be perfected in the understanding of their ministry, in theory, in principle, and in doctrine, in all things pertaining to the kingdom of God on the earth, the keys of which kingdom have been conferred upon you. And inasmuch as my people build a house unto me in the name of the Lord, and do not suffer any unclean thing to come into it, that it be not defiled, my glory shall rest upon it; yea, and my presence shall be there, for I will come into it, and all the pure in heart that shall come into it shall see God. But if it be defiled I will not come into it, and my glory shall not be there; for I will not come into unholy temples. (D&C 97:10-17)

        If you cannot accept these plain teachings, it is not because I have been remiss in teaching this correct principle in plainness. It will be because you just do not wish to be proven wrong. You asked the Snufferites to tell you where you were wrong:

        Snufferites, where are you?

        Tell me where I’m wrong.

        I am no Snufferite, but I have plainly told you where you were wrong, but you refuse to receive correction. Se la vie. The scripture gets fulfilled yet again…

        But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness…and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

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      • G.azelem,

        Verse 25 is calling Saints to come from afar… Verse 60 is a resting place for the weary traveler

        That’s true, but the weary traveler who comes from afar and gets to rest in that boarding-house is the “stranger” who is contemplating the word of the Lord and His cornerstone. The strangers aren’t saints and the saints aren’t strangers. Strangers are non-members. So, the calling of the saints to come from afar is to build the Temple, not to build the boarding-house for strangers and then to rest in that boarding-house. So, the boarding-house is for strangers, not saints, whereas the Temple of the Lord is for saints, not strangers.

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  6. Anarchist,

    Strangers are not non-members.

    Joseph Smith had a hotel for non-members.

    The strangers that would go to the Nauvoo House are the strangers of a strange land — Abraham’s seed.

    They would attend the Nauvoo House to be baptized and ordained to the fulness of the gospel.

    I think saying that I am a stiff-necked Jew is laughable. I am not seeking things that cannot be understood. I understand perfectly well:

    The church fell into apostasy September 11th, 1841.

    They would never build the Nauvoo House, and never complete the Nauvoo Temple. Yet even if they had finished those houses, the church had been rejected.

    They were practicing abominations before the Lord.

    You still believe in polygamy and the endowment.

    You are the one looking beyond the mark.

    That said, I do enjoy your point of views and willingness to challenge me. Thanks for commenting.

    -G.azelem

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    • G.azelem,

      Stranger: http://biblehub.com/topical/s/stranger.htm

      That gives the various definitions found in the different Bible dictionaries. An extract from the first one listed (Smith’s Bible Dictionary) :

      A “stranger,” in the technical sense of the term, may be defined to be a person of foreign, i.e. non-Israelitish, extraction resident within the limits of the promised land.

      In the context of the latter-day saints, this would be a non-LDS man or woman. The saints are never said to be strangers. We are the household of faith and fellow citizens with one another.

      Now, I will address one last thing in your comment. You stated,

      The church fell into apostasy September 11th, 1841.

      They would never build the Nauvoo House, and never complete the Nauvoo Temple. Yet even if they had finished those houses, the church had been rejected.

      Assuming that that were true (which it isn’t), then that would mean that you are likely completely wrong on all of your ideas, as well as the rest of humanity. Without the priesthood and the ordinances, the mysteries of the scriptures are completely unknown to us. Thus, Joseph Smith wrote:

      Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.

      Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood. (JS-H 1:73-74)

      The idea that you claim that the church of God was rejected on that date, and yet you think you understand the word of God is an oxymoron. If the church is no longer on the earth, or the priesthood, or the ordinances, then your mind is in darkness, and you will not be able to understand the things of God any better than anyone else, no better even than a Christian. Your belief in more of the scriptures does not give you an edge over the Christians who only believe in the Bible. Their minds are in darkness, as well as yours. Apostasy, when it rests upon a people, does not discriminate according to how much of the word of God you believe.

      Without the priesthood, and the ordinances, you will continue to stumble, just as the Jews of old did. The whole premise of a church rejection cannot be built upon a platform that you have the truth and others don’t, because it puts everyone in the same boat: all is dark and apostate and rejected, including your own ideas. That you cannot see this, or admit this, shows that your thinking is off, for it is the logical conclusion of the matter. Even in apostasy, or in darkness, in which there is no more falling of the Holy Ghost upon the people, logic, reason, can still allow a person to arrive to a correct conclusion. But spiritual darkness, or blindness of mind, tends to pervert even logic, hence you can’t see that your premise invalidates all truth claims, even your own.

      Again, the idea of an apostate (rejected) church is the same premise that the latter-day saints asserted towards Christianity. The Christians are “apostate Christianity.” Therefore, they do not, and cannot, understand the mysteries of the scriptures. It’s not just because the Bible is incomplete, although that is a contributing factor. No, it is because they have no priesthood and no keys, and thus, they have no church of Christ, for without these keys, there is no church. Also, without these keys, the you cannot get a correct view of God and His things:

      Now the great and grand secret of the whole matter, and the summum bonum of the whole subject that is lying before us, consists in obtaining the powers of the Holy Priesthood. For him to whom these keys are given there is no difficulty in obtaining a knowledge of facts in relation to the salvation of the children of men, both as well for the dead as for the living. (D&C 128:11)

      Therefore, if you contend (as you continue to do) that the church established by Joseph Smith is now apostate and rejected of God, then we are all just like the Christians, without salvation. Believing the BOM and D&C, etc., does not make you any more saved than the Christians who believe only the Bible. Without keys and priesthood, it is useless to save and useless to understand.

      So, I am not picking on you, G.azelem, when I take a hard stance with you. From my vantage point, you are nearly identical to me as a Christian. You believe more of the word of God, but misunderstand it (stumble) just as they do, and your rejection of the keys of the priesthood will condemn you just as their rejection of the keys condemns them.

      Unless and until you come to recognize that the keys have not been lost, and are still within the LDS church, you will continue to reject the word of God (for you only believe a part of the D&C) and will continue to misunderstand that portion of the word of God that you do believe. My corrections above are sufficient to teach you correctly, but they are rejected. Why? Because you reject the keys, so you are starting off entirely on the wrong foot. So, even though you believe D&C 124, you cannot come to a correct understanding of its meaning, even when you are corrected. What good is believing D&C 124 is a true revelation if your belief concerning its meaning is off? It is only good to further condemn you.

      Your mind is made up entirely, it seems, that the church is apostate and rejected, and yet, it is not. So, you have been deceived. Now, I don’t know how you came to this conclusion. It certainly wasn’t by revelation, for the Holy Ghost would not reveal any such thing to you, given that it is a false conclusion, and the Spirit is the Spirit of truth only. So, if you have received a revelation, it was a false revelation, given of the evil one. But I suspect that you haven’t received a revelation about this topic. I suspect that you merely believe. Either way, this is your stumbling block and until it is removed, you will continue to misunderstand the scriptures. Until you admit that your belief in this regard may be wrong, or that your revelation concerning this thing may be from the adversary, you will never be able to be corrected, not by me, not by anyone. And so, your appeal to the Snufferites to “show you where you are wrong” was never made in earnest. Had any shown up to take up that challenge, and given you ample proof of your errors, you still would not have budged in your beliefs. Again, se la vie.

      Like

      • Had any Snufferite shown up… Fat chance.

        It’s just you and I, Anarchist, as I imagined it would be.

        You must recognize that In my opinion it’s me that’s given ample proof.

        It all comes down to polygamy and the endowment. You’re still intoxicated with those false doctrines. That’s why you refuse to accept the idea the church was rejected.

        It’s a tough pill to swallow. I spent months and months of praying before I finally accepted that painful truth.

        I would suggest you read some of my earlier posts to understand where I’m coming from and how little I think of myself. I am not a prophet as you claim to be. I don’t have visions nor do I hear the voice of the Lord.

        I’m just someone who reads the scriptures. Do I err? Of course. Even the humble followers of Christ are erring in certain instances.

        https://theworkofthefather.wordpress.com/2015/08/17/nephi-prophey-pt-2-they-have-all-gone-astray-save-it-be-a-few/

        Please read that post and leave comments there.

        -G.azelem

        Like

  7. G.azelem,

    It’s a tough pill to swallow. I spent months and months of praying before I finally accepted that painful truth.

    I would suggest you read some of my earlier posts to understand where I’m coming from and how little I think of myself. I am not a prophet as you claim to be. I don’t have visions nor do I hear the voice of the Lord.

    I’m just someone who reads the scriptures.

    Okay, then that answers my question, I guess, as to how you arrived at this conclusion. It wasn’t a revelation or a prophecy or a vision or some other manifestation. This is just belief. I must assume, then, that you were an LDS member and were ex-ed, or you were an LDS member and resigned, or you are still an LDS member and have just dropped out. Either way, it seems clear that you started out LDS, and then at some point convinced yourself of the “rejected church” narrative.

    This, actually, seems to be the normal course taken among bloggers who accept the “rejected church” narrative. In other words, I haven’t heard much from any quarter of anyone claiming to have received a revelation that the church was rejected. Instead, I have seen people searching the scriptures, seeing the disconnect between the modern church practices and what is written in the scriptures, and then coming to the conclusion that the church must be apostate and have been rejected. (Snuffer and a few others, who have claimed to have received revelations, are the exceptions to this general rule. But even Snuffer, if I am not mistaken, does not claim to have received any revelation concerning the rejection of the church. Instead, he has used legalisms to infer that the priesthood is lost.)

    Also, a common thread among Rejected-Churchers is, as you stated, “It all comes down to polygamy and the endowment.” The rejected church narrative goes hand-in-hand with rejecting D&C 132 and the endowment.

    You’re still intoxicated with those false doctrines. That’s why you refuse to accept the idea the church was rejected.

    Of a truth, I am intoxicated with all of the doctrines of God, including those two, but I’ve received revelations on all of this stuff already, many many years ago, so I don’t have a habit of re-visiting issues that have already been decided via revelation. So, it’s not so much my intoxication, as it is my revelations, that cause me to discard the Rejected-Church Narrative as false. It doesn’t just conflict with one of my revelations, but with very many.

    Anyway, I will read that post you linked to.

    Liked by 1 person

    • You should revisit your revelations. They are what has deceived you. Even the humble followers of Christ are deceived during this interim period. That’s what I wanted you to get from my last post I linked to you.

      Am I deceived on a number of issues? Yes, until I receive the fulness of the priesthood during the marvelous work I remain in a fallen state, unprotected from false doctrine.

      What makes you so sure you’ve got thing’s figured out?

      At least I atempt to be humble instead of telling people they are in darkness for interpreting scrupture a little differently. ..

      Like

  8. G.azelem,

    Even the humble followers of Christ are deceived during this interim period.

    This isn’t an interim period. The church of Christ is still on the earth.

    You should revisit your revelations. They are what has deceived you.

    You don’t know that. You may believe that, but you yourself have received no revelations concerning my revelations, true or false. Isn’t that right? My revelations, then, may be true. (And they are.)

    What makes you so sure you’ve got thing’s figured out?

    All of my gospel learning derives from the foundation of my revelations. “Upon this rock I will build my church,” said Jesus to Peter, and in the church that is interpreted as meaning the rock of revelation. In my own case, that has certainly proved true. I am a part of the church, and this part of the church, (that is, me), has been entirely built on the rock of revelation. So, to revisit my revelations is pointless. This is a gospel of faith, not of doubt and unbelief. To go back to each one and say, “Gee, I wonder if this might be false?” is pointless. The Holy Ghost when it manifests does so in a manner that leaves an indelible impression upon one’s spirit. In other words, there is nothing more true and real than the manifestations I have had. Anything outside of that context may be true or false, partially or wholly, but the many witnesses of the Spirit I have received cannot be denied. It is a mountain of evidence. It cannot even be doubted. I don’t merely believe, I know.

    You say you prayed and prayed, but it doesn’t sound like you got an answer from God. It sounds like when you didn’t get an answer from God, you just assumed that it was because the church was apostate and the heavens were closed until a later time. But what you should have done is kept praying, ceaselessly, endlessly, diligently, as I have done over the many years I’ve been in this church, until God finally tells you what you want to know. You should never have given up.

    Saying the church is rejected is a cop-out. It is just laziness on your part. I know laziness. I am the laziest man on the planet. But when it comes to the things of God, you cannot be lazy. You’ve got to wrestle with God, and keep wrestling like Jacob did, like Enos did, until you get what you want from Him. You didn’t do that. You just gave up. The whole of this blog, despite the many words you’ve put in it, are a testament to your gospel laziness. You haven’t gotten anything from God, so instead of keeping at it, you just decided to talk about the things of God, His scriptures, instead of actually getting the heavens open and getting a real understanding of them directly from His Spirit.

    (This does not make you unique. There are many such blogs that are just musings about the things of God, with no idea by their author of whether anything discussed is accurate or not.)

    Anyone on the planet that wrestles with God will get His attention. I am nothing special. I only stand out because of the gifts God has given me. Take away those gifts and I’m less than other men. But with those gifts, I do stand out. So, I’ve got nothing to boast because they are God’s gifts. He can give and He can take away. But He does give. And He gave them to me because I did and do what is necessary (faith + ceaseless prayer + lowliness of heart) to get what I want out of Him. So, there is no such thing as a time in which the heavens are closed, irregardless of a person’s faith. God responds to faith and lowliness of heart. I know this because I have gotten plenty out of God, and yet all those like yourself claim this to be a time in which the heavens are closed. But it is demonstrably not. My experience shows that to be a false narrative.

    At least I atempt to be humble instead of telling people they are in darkness for interpreting scrupture a little differently. ..

    You come across as a likable fellow, G.azelem, which is why I’m trying to teach you something. But likability means diddly-squat to God. I am a polarizing person. Some people think I’m the most prideful person they’ve ever met, while others think I’m the most humble person they’ve ever met, while others think both things of me by turns. None of that matters to God (nor to me). God doesn’t care what other people think of you (nor do I). And you shouldn’t either. The only opinion that matters is God’s opinion. What’s God’s opinion of me? I’ve had enough interaction with Him that I actually happen to know. I don’t have to guess.

    But that doesn’t mean I have everything figured out. I have some things figured out, those things that have been manifested to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, and all the rest is connecting dots and opinion. The Lord keeps much of His word “under wraps,” so to speak, to be unfolded later. Dark minds looking at a passage cannot see what is there written in plainness. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you are committing sin. Some understandings must be sought for from the Lord. If you don’t seek, He leaves you in your ignorance. If you do seek, in faith, believing you will receive, with lowliness in heart, and with diligence, then he enlightens your mind.

    But, taking a Rejected-Church Narrative cannot get any light in. You have already made yourself the flea in the jar which has jumped and jumped and hit its head against the jar lid, and then adjusted its leap a little lower so that it no longer hits the lid. At that point, it doesn’t matter if the lid is removed, because you’ll never jump out. You’ve convinced yourself the heavens are closed until the great and marvelous work commences.

    But in reality, this is true only in your mind. The Lord hasn’t closed the heavens, you have closed it by your unbelief. Thus, they will remain closed until the great and marvelous work commences, and even then they will remain closed to you. Why? Because already think you know what is coming. And so when that work commences, and it isn’t what you expected, you will reject it as well, saying that ain’t the real thing. And thus you’ve set yourself up for failure.

    Again, we have two narratives: the Rejected-Church Narrative (RCN) and the Condemned Church Narrative (CCN). You have chosen the RCN, I have chosen the CCN. Under the CCN, the church is condemned for unbelief and vanity, but still forgiven because of testimony. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, don’t worry about it. It simply means that this is still the church of God and it hasn’t been rejected. Under the RCN, darkness reigns everywhere (including in your mind) until the great and marvelous work commences. Under the CCN, darkness reigns everywhere except among the saints of God. Those saints who humble themselves before God and exercise faith, have their minds enlightened. This allows them to be able to teach others.

    Under your RCN, no one can teach anyone anything, because all minds are darkened. Under my CCN, a saint of God, who is a member of the church of God, who has his mind enlightened, is the only one capable of teaching anyone else. Only the enlightened minds are capable of bringing light to darkened minds.

    So, if your RCN is correct, then you can’t teach me a thing, nor can I teach you a thing. Both our minds are dark.

    But if my CCN is correct, then only I can teach you anything, and it is your responsibility to learn. You are not to teach me. I am to teach you. That is my responsibility. Yours is to learn what I teach. Hence the scripture:

    Again I say, hearken ye elders of my church, whom I have appointed: Ye are not sent forth to be taught, but to teach the children of men the things which I have put into your hands by the power of my Spirit; and ye are to be taught from on high. Sanctify yourselves and ye shall be endowed with power, that ye may give even as I have spoken. (D&C 43:15-16)

    I am an elder of the church, holding priesthood, and I have received the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, therefore I am qualified to teach. I teach according to the manifestations of the Spirit in me. You already believe that I have light and truth, but your adherence to the RCN doesn’t allow you to be fully corrected.

    Now, again, I say, that if you want to learn something that will allow you to remove the obstacle in your path that makes you stumble, and actually get some revelation from the Lord, then go to 1 Nephi 13 and read it, then come back and answer the question I posed to you earlier.

    Like

    • We’re still waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God (Romans 8) and the body of Christ.

      Right now there is a “carcass”

      Then there will be the body of Christ, and our spiritual gifts will be to the edification of the church.

      Right now our spiritual gifts are for ourselves.

      I have many visions and prophecies.

      But those are for me and me alone, until the church of God is restored.

      -G.azelem

      Like

  9. G.azelem,

    But those are for me and me alone, until the church of God is restored.

    Okay, I’m going to use the comment space of that other post of yours to attempt to show you that the Rejected-Church Narrative is totally false. So, I’ll retire now from this post.

    Like

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