The Mysteries of the Kingdom pt. 5 “Revelation 12”

“Revelation 12”

One of my controversial beliefs is that the followers of Satan come to the earth to receive bodies and go through a mortal probation. I don’t think it’s controversial; it makes perfect sense to me, but I’ve had a hard time finding anyone else who believes the same thing.

A part of understanding this is understanding that the war in heaven did not completely take place before the earth was formed.

The war in heaven BEGAN before Adam and Eve came to the earth, but Satan was not cast down to the earth until June 6th 1831.

The Book of Revelation contains things that take place in the future, “things which must shortly come to pass.” (Rev 1:1)

That means Revelation 12 and the war in heaven took place after the meridian of time, and after John received this revelation/vision.

That’s my first reason for why the war in heaven took place in the future.

My second reason is a little tricky to explain, but hear me out… We know the reason Satan was cast out of heaven. Satan was cast down because he tried to destroy the agency of man. But man only received agency once they were on the earth to be tempted! (D&C 29:39) There was no agency in heaven. Agency began with mortal probation. So the war in heaven had to take place after the earth began its 7000 years of temporal existence.

Also keep in mind the content of the Book of Job, in which Satan is STILL in the presence of God.

Satan rebelled in the pre-existence and kept not his first estate, but that does not mean he was no longer in heaven. The true meaning of “estate” is unlocked in Luke, when Mary says that God, “hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.” (Luke 1:48)

The first estate was not heaven. It was not a place. It was a position, a state of being.

Satan and his followers did not keep their first estate/position before God.

That does not mean they didn’t go through a mortal probation.

In Moses 5 we read that Cain was a son of perdition before the world was made. (verse 24)

Cain did not keep his first estate in heaven, and on earth it showed.

Many followed Satan in the pre-existence (Moses 4:6; Abraham 3:28) and they became the angels of Satan. They’ve been slowly coming to the earth as part of an opposition of all things.

When Satan was cast down to the earth, I believe that his followers then began coming en masse.

Think about it…

They were cast down to the EARTH. Why wouldn’t God just cast them elsewhere…? Why were they cast to the earth???

Because they were foreordained to come to the earth and go through a mortal probation!

There are many other scriptural references I could use to prove this, but if what I’ve said is not sufficient, you will never believe this and never find those references for yourselves.

[The Word of God also teaches that the celestial souls were always celestial. They were foreordained to salvation the same way the devil and his angels are foreordained to hell/annihilation.]

For now I want to focus on the war in heaven. I believe I have ascertained the exact date that Satan was cast down. Let’s look at Revelation 12.

Then we will go to the D&C for the dates.

*

Revelation 12 explains that the dragon persecuted the church of God, which brought forth Jesus Christ– the man child– who WAS (future) to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

The woman (the church of God) flees into the wilderness for 1260 years. (verse 5)

Then, at a later time, the woman is nourished for time, times, and time and half a time, by two wings of an eagle. (verse 14)

Most readers think that the time, times, and half a time, is the 1260 years mentioned in verse 5. But if you understand the D&C this is not the case.

The kingdom of God was restored to the earth when the Melchizidek Priesthood was restored to the earth on June 6th 1831.

The two wings that nourish the kingdom of God are Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, the seer and the spokesman.

The kingdom of God is nourished for three and a half years (time, times, and time and a half) from 1831 to 1834.

Then the latter-day apostasy occurred. The new and everlasting covenant was broken. (Complete apostasy occurred by 1842)

*

Now take a look at 1260 years that was mentioned in verse 5.

The church was in the wilderness for 1260 years from 1831.

1831-1260 = 571 AD

What happened 571 AD?

It was only until that year that the kingdom of God left the earth. So much for the “great apostasy” that supposedly occurred after the apostles were killed. The true church was on the earth until that point.

I believe the true church made its way through Asia and Africa, while Rome hijacked Christianity in Europe.

What else happened 571 AD?

The birth of Muhammad.

One of the beasts that Revelation speaks of…

But that’s all I’m going to cover for now. I more than likely could be wrong about lots of things in Revelation. But here were some of my thoughts on it.

I will continue this series in a different direction.

-G.azelem

[update: I forgot something I wanted to include with this. I have another reason to believe that Satan was cast to the earth in 1831.

We read in Section 50 that, “there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world.” verse 2

Now compare that to what Section 52 tells us: “Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth…”

After the Melchizidek priesthood was restored, between the date of Section 50 and the date of Section 52, we now have Satan himself deceiving the world!

At the Morley Farm, during the calling from heaven of God’s own voice, declaring who is to be ordained to the Melchizidek priesthood, Joseph said that the man of sin was there revealed.

That is something I encourage people to read about. Thanks!]

25 thoughts on “The Mysteries of the Kingdom pt. 5 “Revelation 12”

  1. I have a hard time thinking that followers of Satan coming to Earth would be controversial. It seems fairly obvious that wicked, conniving spirits would surely come as agents of darkness. Whether in secret, or as double agents, a physical body provides a power that cannot be matched other beings (procreation, Temple of God).

    I interpret Moses 5:24 a little differently:
    Agency is essential to the plan of salvation. God knows past/present/future.
    But if everything is predestined (God already knew Cain was a bad seed and was planning from the beginning to send him to hell), then where is the agency in that? If I’m doing everything I can to learn/ be a good disciple of Christ, but I’m predestined to heaven/hell…what’s the point in trying?

    I believe that each choice creates a ripple effect, going forward AND backwards. As we sin/repent, the book of life is edited accordingly. Ex 32:33, Rev 3:5
    From that time forth (present/future), the ripple had changed to a past tense…NOW showing that he wast before the world was.

    Like

    • Hey Janae,

      I love your thoughtful responses.

      Thank you for reading.

      As always, things are more complicated than how I present.

      Cain didn’t keep his first estate/position before God in the pre-earth life, but that didn’t necessarily mean he had no hope. God tells him, “if thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted.”

      Like Judas, hell would be “his own place” where he belonged… but just like angels of God that fell… angels of Satan could return to the light.

      So long as we all agree that God knows everything, including the future and who would choose righteousness instead of wickedness, I think we’re on the same page.

      I lean more towards predestination.

      I think there may even be a difference between the Book of Life, and the Lamb’s Book of Life–

      Because the dead will be judged whether or not they are in the Book of Life… but we know that the celestial will judge the world with Jesus Christ. Therefore I believe the elect are not in the Book of Life. They are in the LAMB’s life, not mortal life.

      You dig?

      G.azelem

      But ar

      Like

  2. I have loved this series, by far my favorite!

    My question may not be best placed with this post but it came to mind while reading.

    If Rev 1:1 states that John’s visions are things which would be future, how have we already past through the first five seals? Should they not all be opened in the future, your thought?

    Like

    • Hey Searcher,

      Thanks for reading!

      I think Section 77 created a huge red herring by saying each seal represents a thousand years of earth’s temporal existence.

      Due to misinterpreting that section, I had spent three years believing that a seal opens every thousand years.

      Once I realized that the seals ALL open in the future, I was finally able to understand. The seals REPRESENT a thousand years, but they all open in the future.

      Five seals have opened.

      The fulness of the gospel must be restored before the sixth seal opens.

      See you in Zion,
      G.

      Like

  3. Hi, seems like you pasted your text twice, which made this post 2x longer.

    You said

    The Book of Revelation contains things that take place in the future, “things which must shortly come to pass.” (Rev 1:1)

    I agree that it contains that, but not only that as evidenced by
    Chapter 6 where the opening of the first 4 seals is accompanied by
    visions of what happened during those 1000 year periods.

    Your second premise is

    But man only received agency once they were on the earth to be tempted! (D&C 29:39) There was no agency in heaven

    I do not believe that agency exists only when the devil tempts men. If
    so, will the people during the Millenium be without agency?

    28 And in that day Satan shall not have power to tempt any man.
    (DC 101:28)

    LDSAnarchist goes in depth on DC29:39 and I tend to side with his
    interpretation.
    https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/the-doctrine-of-destruction/#comment-6589

    Like

    • jackdale,

      The people during the Millennium will not have agency.

      Children will grow up without sin unto salvation, baptized at age eight.

      [baptism at age eight should only occur when there is a legitimate stake of Zion established]

      However, Satan is loosed at the end of the millennium for a short season. All those that grew up sinless will be faced with temptation during that point in time. So everyone will eventually have the agency to choose good or evil.

      Thank you for referring me to the anarchist comment…. I’m actually quite impressed by that interpretation…

      I will read and pray on it.

      Thank you.

      G.azelem

      Like

  4. I don’t see how Satan not having power to tempt man during the millennium, removes our agency.

    If people continue to have children (D&C 45:58) wouldn’t they have agency to choose a spouse?

    If Isaiah 65:20 speaks of sinners, doesn’t that offer the agency to still sin?

    “Satan only gains power over man through man’s exercise of his own agency; and when Satan shall be bound, as the Lord says he will be for a thousand years, one of the great powers that will help bring this to pass will be man’s agency. The Lord has never forced men against their will to obey Him. He never will do so. If Satan, therefore, has power with man, it is because man yields to his influence. …(George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:86–87).

    Agency is doctrine. Doctrine, like God, never changes. It is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If we didn’t have agency in the pre-existence, how could a third part have turned away from God (D&C 29:36)?

    On a side note…this section of the D&C speaks only of Adam. Where’s Eve?

    Janae

    Like

  5. I read your post on soul mates in July. Re-read to see if 6 months of learning has changed my mind. It hasn’t.

    It tickles my ears, and I want it to be true, but it’s just too romanticized. And takes away the agency of the other person.

    http://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2005_02_01_Anderson.htm
    This talk helps explain my feelings on the importance of agency. “…anytime we, in our stewardships, try to accomplish good by limiting others’ choices – even their choice to fail – we are falling for Satan’s telestial counterfeit of true leadership – in effect, taking lessons from the loser – and effectively ending our potential to truly bless or save.”

    Try this on for size: http://journeytothefullness.com/the-journey-receiving-our-endowment/
    While I don’t consider it proof of anything, it gives food for thought.

    Janae

    Like

    • Hey Janae,

      Thanks for the link. An interesting talk. I enjoyed her statement that if we are celestial we “not only do the right things, but we /feel/ the right things.”

      Agency is a huge stumbling block that prevents people from seeing eye to eye. I can’t wait for the day when we come in unity of doctrine. Then you’ll believe in Soul Mates 😉

      Janae, did you read the comment by jackdale76 above? He included a link to a comment written by the Anarchist. Very interesting perspective on agency. It’s given me lots to think of. I’ve been reading Section 29 over and over trying to pin it down.

      Lastly, the link you gave me about the endowment I tried my best to read. I’m kind of bored out by the endowment. I haven’t believed in it for years now. People that are able to make some sense out of it I give major crops to. The author of your article closes it by saying, “We must have faith in Jesus Christ. He truly is the gate.”

      Is she taking the same endowment ceremony as the rest of us? The endowment ceremony hardly mentions our Savior.

      That’s why I don’t believe in it. If God really wanted us doing a ceremony it would include the gospel of grace and faith and be focused on nothing but the infinite and eternal atonement of Jesus Christ.

      -G.azelem

      Like

  6. I have read LDS Anachist, and agree with his assessment of D&C 29:39. Which also corresponds to 2 Nephi 2:11, 13.

    I could have just shared my point of the endowment post, but I didn’t want to take anything out of context for someone else. (I no longer believe in the temple ceremonies myself. I still hold a current recommend, but expect that they will take it away from me at some point.)

    The part that was intriguing to me was: “What we know is that we are supposed to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve… respectively. But how respectively? We are going to approach this as if we are both Adam and Eve. Adam was created first; Adam will represent the spirit. Eve was created second; she will represent the physical/natural man. So we will consider ourselves as if we are spirit and body… respectively.

    It is interesting to note that our physical/natural body appears as our spirit body. (Ether 3:16) In this sense, Eve was created in the image of Adam. She was created from one of Adam’s ribs. They took a part of Adam (an image), and made Eve. Or in other words, our physical/natural body was created in the image of our spirit body.”

    The current endowment words have been changed to more specifically say that a woman should defer to her husband. The original wording would have fit better.

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  7. I don’t believe in coincidences when it comes to Gods’ word so here is something I found. D&C 34:6 the Lord tells Orson Pratt, “lift up your voice as with the sound of a trump, both long and loud.” Now those same words show up again in D&C 88:94 “another angel shall sound his trump,… And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it”. Now maybe this is nothing important, but I found it pretty interesting!

    Like

  8. Hey Searcher,

    I think you’re onto something! I sure hope Orson Pratt is part of the last days picture. Him and Parley… those rascals…

    In that same section Orson is told, ” if you are faithful, behold, I am with you until I come—”

    Sadly, I do not think he remained faithful. At age 57 the dude married a sixteen year old girl.

    Hopefully his eyes were just closed like Joseph’s were. Orson is given the gift of prophecy in Section 34. So he definitely could be one of the prophets whose eyes were closed due to the wickedness of the people.

    *

    Janae,

    Thanks for sharing those insights. It’s pretty amazing, isn’t it? The story of Adam and Eve will continue to evolve as God teaches us line upon line. The more I read about them, the more complex I realize the creation and purpose of the world is.

    My recommend has expired and I doubt I will receive a new one.

    However, I remain an active member. You?

    -G.azelem

    Like

  9. Still active. The spirit hasn’t told me to stop going.
    I feel like my purpose is to ask the right questions. Point out scriptures. Dispel false doctrines.
    I’ll go where He wants me to go.

    Like

  10. Revelations 12:6 “the women fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” is this the 1260 years and if so how did you calculate that?

    Also if you notice that time frame is mentioned in Revelations 11:3, “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” Are those two witnesses not Joseph and Sidney, but if they are that’s really confusing me on how everything unfolds. I’m probable just not reading these scriptures right.

    Like

    • Hey Searching,

      If you look at the JST of Revelation 12, you’ll see that it was meant to be YEARS, not days.

      1200 + three score = 1260

      Score is equivalent to 20, so three score is 60.’

      I do not think Joseph and Sidney are the two witnesses.

      Remember that Revelation 11 takes place in the seventh seal, right before the millennium.

      My personal belief is that the two witnesses are going to be new comers. The first elders of the church (Joseph, Sidney, Lyman etc.) are called to the Gentiles, which is the marvelous work. The work of the Father is to the seed of Lehi and the Jewish nation.

      The work of the Father is going to be accomplished by people like us who accept the first elders.

      G.azelem

      Like

  11. One more thought came to mind when reading your response. The remnant of the seed of Jacob, are they redeemed during the Work of the Father or the Marvelous work? Also, I thought Joseph was suppose to teach the Native Americans when he returned? Thanks!

    Like

  12. A couple different thoughts related to the post:
    You associate the fleeing of the church into the wilderness with the arrival of Mohammed. Lehi took his family into the wilderness, the same wilderness where Mohammed spoke with the angel Gabriel and was told to teach the people to repent and worship the only true God, Are you saying that Islam, which also went through Africa and Asia is part of preserving truth during apostasy, or that it is a force of the devil? I would like you to clarify because most religious bloggers seem to take a very harsh stand on Islam without knowing anything about it for themselves.

    Second point, related to agency and whether or not rebellious spirits have bodies on Earth:
    Alma 13 describes two groups who “become high priests forever”. The first group was “called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their EXCEEDING FAITH AND GOOD WORKS; in the FIRST PLACE BEING LEFT TO CHOOSE GOOD OR EVIL; therefore they having CHOSEN GOOD, and exercising EXCEEDINGLY GREAT FAITH, are called with a holy calling which was prepared with, and according to a preparatory redemption for such.” (Alma 13:3)

    In verse 10, we find the second group. “there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their EXCEEDING FAITH AND REPENTANCE, AND THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS BEFORE GOD, they choosing to REPENT AND WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS rather than to perish; therefore, they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were WASHED WHITE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.”

    Where is the “first place” where men were left to choose good or evil? Does this relate to Abraham 3:25-26? “And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; and they who keep their FIRST ESTATE shall be ADDED UPON; and they who KEEP NOT THEIR FIRST ESTATE shall NOT HAVE GLORY [Priesthood?] in the same kingdom [earthly mortality?] with those who keep their first estate; and they who KEEP THEIR SECOND ESTATE shall have GLORY ADDED upon their heads forever and ever.”

    Like

    • Ranae,

      Dang! I should have been more clear about Islam.

      I believe Islam came about by Satan. The apostasy of the New Testament church culminated to a complete apostasy and was replaced by the antichrist system of Islam.

      Another parallel is the seventh day Adventist movement. Ellen G. White had her first vision the year that Joseph Smith died. Coincidence? Methinks not.

      *

      In regards to Alma 13 I think it is a far stretch to say that is referring to acts done in the pre-existence, though it is inferring a pre-existence did exist (they being called and prepared.) High Priests were called as high priests according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. God KNEW they would choose faith and righteousness ON EARTH.

      -G.azelem

      Like

  13. Gazelem, you said

    but Satan was not cast down to the earth until June 6th 1831.

    However the Temple Endowment says

    We will place before him the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and we will allow Lucifer, our common enemy, whom we have thrust out, to tempt him and to try him…

    Doesnt this mean that Satan was cast out before Adam began? What’s your take on the quote?

    Like

    • Hey Jackdale,

      Thanks for visiting.

      I myself do not believe one word of the temple endowment. I believe it is unscriptural and not inspired of God.

      Therefore I do not take anything from it into account.

      -G.azelem

      Like

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