I’ve been following Denver Snuffer for years now. Much of what he has written is legitimate and thoughtful. If it was anyone but him, I’d be impressed by his thoughts and ideas. However, DS claims that he has been taught by Jesus Christ.
With claims like that, there comes a greater expectation. Because of this, I have carefully scrutinized both him and his teachings. In fact, he has demanded that everyone do this. Read this:
I have never said this publicly, but because of what I think will ensue after this talk I am going to say it, not for my sake, and certainly not for the sake of anyone who believes the truth or who has the Spirit, but I say it only to benefit those who may view things completely otherwise. 9 The Lord has said to me in His own voice, “I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you.” Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it. But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it.
I remember reading this on my mission, when the lectures were first transcribed onto denversnuffer.com; and I want it known that I took what he said very seriously. Everyone should– because if Denver really has been called to deliver a message from God, we of course need to heed and obey, or thus be damned instead.
Since then I have found numerous reasons to reject Denver Snuffer and thus classify him as a false prophet.
The biggest reason is this next claim of his, delivered in the same lecture as the last paragraph I’ve already included:
Thereafter, I appealed to the First Presidency, outlining the involvement of the 12 and the 70. The appeal gave notice to them all. The appeal was summarily denied. Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.
According to DS, during the general conference of April 2014, all claims of priesthood in the LDS church became void. A very bold thing to say. Did this happen? He is either correct, or he is wrong. Remember, he is being tutored by Jesus Christ, and angels– so he better know what he’s talking about.
Apologist’s of Denver may contest me and say that Denver was not saying that the church lost the Melchizedek or Patriarchal, but simply lost whatever priesthood it had– but that would be to deny all of Denver’s previous teachings on priesthood.
In 2009, Denver had this to say:
The Church holds the sealing power as a part of the restoration of all things… Joseph commented on three degrees of priesthood: Aaronic, Melchizedek and Patriarchal… The Church possesses and administers all three. Those who have their callings and election made sure also hold all three.
Denver has clearly taught that the church held all three priesthoods. Once you understand the simple matter that the fulness of the priesthood was lost (D&C 124:28) and the Saints did not comply to have it restored again, all these points fall flat.
Just as you can surmise the LDS teachings into one simple concept– “follow the prophet”– the same thing can be done with Denver:
“You can receive the second comforter.”
A recent development I’ve had with my own understanding of the gospel is that there is actually no such thing as a second comforter.
There is only the Comforter.
I’ve realized the whole concept of Denver’s teachings have been built on a faulty premise; and that everyone teaching or believing in a “second” Comforter have been deceived.
And yes I know that Joseph Smith did apparently teach that there was a second Comforter, but that wouldn’t be the only thing he got wrong. I think the scriptures speak for themselves.
John 14-17 contain many marvelous and deep teachings. In my opinion, it’s there that we find the meat of the gospel.
We read in Hebrews that the meat of the gospel is only for those that have learned to discern between good and evil. Therefore, I think that anyone who misinterprets the deeper teachings of Christ have not used the milk of the gospel to deliver themselves from doing and practicing evil. Only until someone sheds their false beliefs will they then understand the true essence of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is really saying.
I do not believe myself to be completely exempt. Even the humble followers of Christ are deceived in one way or another. (2 Ne 28:14) I do not think I am 100% right about anything, but I do think that I have learned to discern between good and evil.
That said, I wouldn’t want anyone taking my word for anything. Same with Joseph Smith, or anyone else. We need to go back to the word of God and discover what it actually says about a given subject.
No matter what religion we grew up with, we all have been brainwashed and indoctrinated to believe falsehoods.
For instance, I never would have thought to question the concept of the second Comforter. I’ve been seriously studying the scriptures for years, but not once had it ever crossed my mind to doubt whether or not there even is a second Comforter. That’s how deeply ingrained it is in LDS thought.
Over the last few years, I’ve had to slowly peel away all the false teachings I’ve grown up with.
Here is why I reject the second Comforter, and all those that espouse it:
In John 14 we read,
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth;
Here the Comforter is referred to as the Spirit of truth. This is the “other” Comforter that people believe is not the Holy Ghost, but Jesus Christ. The reason people think that it is not the Holy Ghost, is because the word “another” is placed there. I admit that this does make it appear as though there is a distinction. However, I think the key is that the Comforter referred to in verse 16 is associated with being the Spirit of truth.
With that said, take a look at John 15:
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.
This verse does not support the second comforter doctrine. When you discard that idea, the theology behind the Holy Ghost begins to make much more sense.
We know that the Holy Ghost was not given while Jesus was on the earth. It was only until he was glorified that the Holy Ghost/endowment/baptism of fire was finally bestowed on his followers– on the day of Pentecost.
Returning back to John 15:
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Students of the Bible have believed that verse 27 is only referring to the fact that the apostles of Jesus have been with him from the beginning of his ministry.
Modern revelation reveals the deeper meaning of what Jesus was saying.
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.
23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
Receiving the Spirit of truth– the fulness of the Holy Ghost, the one and only Comforter– is associated with being a member of the church of the Firstborn. If my assumptions are correct, those that will receive the Spirit of truth were the ones that were with Jesus Christ, who was with the Father, in the very, very beginning…
Back to John 14:
20 At that day [that you receive the Comforter] ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
It is the opinion of this author that this marks the moment we become sons of God through loving Christ and keeping his commandments. (John 14:21) The Spirit of truth, Jesus Christ, was dwelling with the apostles, and once the world no longer had Jesus Christ he would be in them (John 14:17) on the day the Comforter came from heaven in the sound of a rushing mighty wind.
This doctrine is far more simple than we’ve been led to believe.
Jesus was the Comforter on earth, but when he is not on the earth, another Comforter is sent to us, which is the Holy Ghost, which is the mind and will of God that Jesus personified.
Jesus was telling his disciples that he will not leave us comfortless; he will come to us through the Holy Ghost. This way, Christ can abide with us forever during the times he is not on the earth ministering. Those that receive Jesus Christ, the one and only Comforter, through the ordinances and the power of godliness (experiencing a baptism of fire) can part the heavens, “and see the face of God, even the Father.” (D&C 84:22)
How can they see God? Because they are a son of God like Jesus Christ; this because they relied on the Son’s holy merits and were sanctified through him. Through the one and only Comforter.
G.azelem, I usually enjoy your posts; however, I believe in this instance you are working so hard to discredit Denver Snuffer that you may possibly be doing an injustice to truth. Honest seekers should evaluate both sides of the discussion fairly and then choose the side where truth resides. You seemed to have only quoted the verses in John 14 that support your premise (which premise seems to be built soley to rebuff Denver) while not addressing those that support the other, such as:
John 14:18 – I will come to you
John 14:21 – I will manifest myself to him
John 14:23 – we (referring to the Father and Christ) will come and make our abode with Him.
Lopsided arguments usually leave me wondering what else has not been fully disclosed, discussed, or considered in the rush to prove a point.
As for Denver, I am an undecided party. I have read four of his books and much of his blog. For the most part, I find him insightful and helpful in my efforts to come unto Christ. He was the first to help break my paradigm of the LDS church containing the fulness of the gospel, which has set me on a wonderful journey with many heartaches and spiritual experiences. For this, I will forever be grateful to him. However, just as you mentioned above, there are some things that he has said or written that cause me concern. I have prayed to know whether I should break from the LDS church and join one of the local groups formed by his followers, but so far the only answer I have received is to stay with the church until I either receive further direction or until they cast me out (which doesn’t sound that pleasant). As for Denver, I wait and watch, while trying to live the truths I have been given. As long as someone teaches repentance and faith in Christ, I try to give them the benefit of a doubt (Moroni 7:11-18). I fear by trying to discredit them, I may of myself be fulfilling prophecy (3N 20:44 and 3N 21:10). The scriptures clearly prophecy of a servant that will come forth in the last days that will once again have the authority to declare, “thus saith the Lord.” He will speak the words of Christ, which I can only hope that I will be living such that I will “hear His voice” and not “be cut off from among the people” (3N 20:23 which is also found in so many interesting places).
Thank you for your insight and thought provoking posts.
I appreciate the comment and feedback.
Unlike my early posts, I’m now trying to be quick and to-the-point. In doing so, I think a lot of what I mean to say doesn’t end up getting across. I also received an email that was along the same lines as your comment.
I believe the verses you referred to in John 14 do in fact refer to being visited by Jesus Christ. My contention was just that the idea of a “second comforter” doesn’t exist; so if Denver has that wrong, how can he be seeing Jesus Christ?
The believers will truly see Jesus Christ in the flesh in this life. I don’t disagree with that.
I suppose I did rush to prove a point, as you’ve said.
I’ll write something up soon about the true doctrine of having the heavens parted while in this mortal probation. That should clear up my thoughts on the subject.
I don’t mean to obsess over Denver. I guess I can’t find much of a reason for this blog except to give my commentary on important things happening in the mormon world. Denver is either the final prophet mentioned in 3rd Nephi 20-21, or he is a deceiver. I think Denver is on shaky ground and does nothing but lose more and more credibility with each and every claim of his.
I love that you’ve noticed the phrase about being cut off from among the people, and how this is an event that will occur in our lives. There is going to be a prophet we must heed and obey.
In my opinion, it’s impossible that the prophet is Denver. He doesn’t even understand the most important doctrine he espouses.
Again, thanks for the feedback.
My thought on this is that it is very possible for someone to receive a prophetic message, even from Christ himself. However, that doesn’t mean they are all of a sudden an anointed Prophet of God. I know little of DS, and unless God told him or any other claiming such things, specifically to gather Israel and rebuild Zion, then I see no reason to regard him as such.
Receiving divine revelation is possible for us all, and we all benefit when those revelations are shared. To claim or declare anything other than what has been given from the Lord, is a precept of men. This applies to the messenger as well as those who would follow them. Take heed of the message if it is truly of God, but nothing beyond that.
We thirst for truth and want the return of true, anointed Prophets; but we must not deceive ourselves in that need and place our trust in any man. There were several others besides Joseph Smith who saw the Father and Jesus Christ, but they were only to act in God’s name when specifically told to do so. The same with Joseph, himself.
We cannot make the same mistake the early saints did and look to the arm of the flesh for answers. There is really no need to look to a prophet for anything other than the divine word of God. Once that word is spoken, it is up to ourselves to discern and heed if true.
DS does indeed claim to be the one to bring again Zion, which is basically the only reason I deem it necessary to rebuff his teachings.
You nailed it on the head in saying there’s no reason to look for a prophet for anything other than the word of God. The hard part is knowing who’s a prophet and who isn’t. Essentially I think it takes a true prophet to recognize a true prophet. That said, a huge purpose of what I write is to outline why we shouldn’t fool ourselves into thinking we are connected with God and the Holy Spirit– that we are in hidden darkness, and anyone claiming to be in communion with God needs to be judged to an extremely high standard.
Thanks for visiting.
Christ’s teachings in the NT make it very easy and clear how to tell true prophets and true disciples from false ones. True prophets will always preach and keep his commandments that he taught in the 4 Gospels.
Even Joseph Smith understood this and taught that anyone who preaches contrary to Christ reveals himself as a false prophet, but Joseph just didn’t realize he was also referring to himself.
So I believe it’s easy to see that people like Denver, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and LDS leaders today, are not true prophets, for they preach and practice contrary to Christ’s real teachings.
False prophets always preach mostly wonderful true things and often have great inspiring insights & knowledge, but they slip in just a few falsehoods, often unknowingly and with good intentions, but that few people ever catch, but it’s mostly their actions that give them away, things they do that are contrary to Christ’s commandments. But so few people really study what Christ really said that few ever see where false prophets are doing wrong.
And Christ also warned against falling for ‘false Christs’, who deceive many into thinking it’s the real Christ. It seems that so many people today are being deceived by these false Christ’s appearing to them, along with other false personages claiming to be certain divine beings, and teaching them a mixture of both true and false things, things that are different from or contrary to what Christ really taught when he was here.
The reality is that no human being can know for sure if their ‘feelings’ or if a ‘spirit personage’ is from God or not, for false feelings and visitations can feel so right and make us feel so wonderful and full of love and peace and teach us so many real & wonderful truths (among the falsehoods) that everyone can be deceived it.
Thus why Christ taught that the only sure way to know if our revelation or a personage or Spirit is true is by what it’s telling us, (facts we can prove or disprove) by whether it’s the same exact teachings as Christ taught when he was here. Anything more or less or different, proves itself false.
Truth is eternal, thus Christ’s commandments are our only sure standard to tell right from wrong, along with our conscience which we all have deep down to tell us right from wrong, but that can too easily be dimmed by sin before we are even an adult. But everyone understands the Golden Rue and unconditional love, which things like polygamy and inequality and so many other falsehoods which are taught in the LDS religion or other religions are totally contrary to the real Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Falsehoods usually are so close to the truth that it’s very easy to fall for them, and they usually are just what the natural man wants to hear. While Christ taught of things that hardly anyone wants to hear or do, for it often requires too much sacrifice. Even Christ’s Apostles admitted they weren’t able to live many of his teachings and they wondered who would ever be saved since the standards of salvation were so high.
It makes me happy that you’ve found my blog… I’ve followed your comments for years now. I’ve even saved a few of your comments, because to me they’ve always been worth re-reading.
You’ve taught me more about the Gospel than any other person on earth.
That’s not a hyperbole.
Thank you for all the words you’ve shared over the years. I’d love it if you contacted me directly firstname.lastname@example.org
Regarding your rejection of the Second Comforter, how do you reconcile D&C 76 (the testimony of Jesus, being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, receiving manifestations while in the flesh) and D&C 88:3-4? Are you saying that it is all just the Holy Spirit? That doesn’t square with the Book of Mormon either, by my reading, after all, the Brother of Jared was redeemed because he came into the presence of Christ.
Just because I reject the “second comforter” doctrine does not mean that I don’t believe that we are ti ultimately receive a testimony of Jesus in the flesh.
Once you receive the one and only Comforter, you receive communication/vision of Christ. You are sanctified by the Comforter, and as a result you are able to see the face of God.
Our #1 desire should be to see Christ. I don’t refute that. I refute that there is no second comforter according to the scriptures. Denver hasn’t been given the gift of the Holy Ghost by a properly ordained servant. He can’t have received a baptism of fire, therefore he can’t have seen Christ.
Only Joseph Smith was able to see a Christ without any priesthood authority involved.
The difference between Denver and Joseph is that Denver has not brought forth any revelation. All he does is rehash what every alternative mormon has talked about it and considered the last 50 years.
That is why I don’t take his claims seriously. God can do whatever he wants through whichever means he wants. Thing is, I know God has different plans than what Denver has proposed.
I guess we have different definitions of the second comforter. What you describe sounds awfully similar. Once you receive the first comforter, you can receive the second (see the face of God). I am concerned, however, by your insistence that you know whether or not someone has received the gift of the Holy Ghost or been sanctified. How do you know?
It’s seemingly impossible to convey what I’m trying to explain.
What you describe as the “second comforter” is the true doctrine of seeing Jesus Christ, returning back into his presence while in mortality.
What Im saying is that the scriptures don’t actually talk about a second comforter. Denver hasn’t been teaching coerect doctrine. He is misinterpreting John’s words, which is a big deal. There is no such thing as a second comforter.
There is the Comforter. That’s all the scriptures speak of. Once you receive the Comforter, the heavens are parted, and you can be visited by the Lord.
But to use the expression “second comforter” is faulty, as I’ve proved, which puts DS as suspect if he is going to misinterpret his most important doctrine.
I believe that no one can be sanctified until the fulness of the priesthood returns to the earth. Until I see evidence of this, no one can have seen Jesus Christ.
What had led you to the belief that no one can be sanctified until the fullness of the priesthood returns (with Adam, I believe you said before)? It seems to me that coming into the presence of the Lord IS the fullness of the priesthood, and that the process of going through that involves your sanctification. However, I don’t believe it necessary for Adam to return before that happens.
I have not said that the fulness is going to be restored by Adam.
I mean to say exactly what Daniel says– that Satan prevails against the Saints until the return of the Ancient of Days.
This is why Zion has not been successfully established. Those that were sanctified– Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Lyman Wight– did not remain in their sanctified state. Satan prevailed against them.
The final restoration will occur, and those that are sanctified will be raptured.
If Satan prevailled against Joseph Smith, he of course is prevailling against Denver Snuffer.
Ok. I guess I don’t get the same meaning from Daniel 7 that you do.
I have enjoyed your posts in various venues. I am not going to try to argue your opinion about Denver Snuffer. There is no need for that, because your knowledge of the scriptures is much greater than mine. That may be the problem. I will tell you that I know without a doubt, by the Spirit of God that Denver is a true messenger, and most likely the Davidic Servent, although he never claimed himself to be. I don’t think we can really know truth by our own (man’s) reasoning. The smarter we are and the more we study will never replace the need for true Spiritual enlightenment. I still enjoy your posts because I think you are right on a high percentage of your reasonings. Thanks, just my humble opinion.
What about my posts have you enjoyed? What do you agree with???
You are right that being smart has nothing to do with anything. I’m as dumb as they come. I’m a high school drop out that works minimum wage.
we need to pray unto the Father with all energy of heart that we may be filled with the pure love of Christ.
That’s what it’s all about!
That’s the enlightenment we seek.
That’s what both you and I are searching for.
We are not filled with the pure love of Christ through the workings of the LDS institution and its false claims.
Currently, I find it only in the scriptures.
I honestly find it extremely hard to pray. I do not feel the Spirit in my life often. That’s just me being honest. I tried to find the Lord in the LDS church and I tried finding him through the teachings of Denver Snuffer.
The only time I have found enlightenment is through the comforting knowledge I have received that the prophecies of the standard works will come to fruition.
I want to throw away everything Mormonism, but I simply cannot. I want to throw away the scriptures and just live a Christ-like life and follow him.
BUT I CAN’T. I am cursed with the knowledge I have received.
I’m not trying to be smart.
I just relay the scriptures the way they read to me.
But anyway, i really started to go off… I’m pretty energetic at around this time and get pretty talkative… sorry to have drowned on.
Seriously: I would love to hear what it is about my posts that you could enjoy while I am so anti-Denver Snuffer.
You have no understanding. Until you can interpret prophecy from the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and the D&C and center it on one principle such as the redemption of Zion, you are a false prophet of egotistical opinions. Regardless of what you say, the LDS Church fills many prophecies. You do not know how to understand the words of the Lord.
“Regardless of what you say, the LDS Church fills many prophecies”.
Of course the LDS Church fills many prophecies, especially those about the lattter-day apostasy.